Transcript for September 15, 2017

>> All right. So good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being here. Thank you for those of you who are joining us, um, virtually online. Hi. I'm Marisol Vasquez [inaudible], I'm a faculty member here at [inaudible] State in the Department of Administration, Rehabilitation, and Post-Secondary Education. I'm also the associate director of the Community College Equity Assessment Lab here on campus and I work with my colleagues [inaudible] and Frank Harris doing research around students at community colleges and looking at opportunities and ways to increase student outcomes for unrepresented students. So my focus in my research has been on Latino students in particular, and Latino men more specifically. And I recently started transitioning into looking at their transfer experiences, and I'll share a little bit more about why I guess that was the reason. So the presentation that I'm sharing with you is titled Exploring the Latino Male Transfer Experience, [inaudible] pre, post, and what that looks like beyond what have these participants shared in terms of what are their post baccalaureate degree goals. So I wanted to acknowledge that I do not do this research alone. So I do want to I guess give kudos to my collaborators. Cool. So this is Dr. Sarah Rodriquez and Dr. Chris Salinas [assumed spelling].

So this particular project was sponsored by the community college, the Center for the [inaudible] Community Colleges, and so we received a grant to do this kind of tristate investigation of Latino male transfer students, so in California, Texas, and Florida. And so Dr. Rodriguez and Dr. Salinas were also my co-collaborators on this project, and my research team, we collected the data here in California. Dr. Rodriguez is an assistant professor at Iowa State University and so she collected the data in Texas, that's originally where she's from and also where she earned her Ph.D. And then Dr. Salina, he's also an assistant professor at Ford Atlantic University and so he helped us with the data collection in Florida. And as I mention, [inaudible], but I did mention we [inaudible] supported through the Center for the Study of Community Colleges through their grants for innovative research on community colleges. We are supported -- so the three of us, as I mentioned, we're always in the third year of our assistant profession tenure track line and we're all faculty affiliates of this other collaborative effort, it's called Project Males, it's through the University of Texas at Austin. And so it's focused -- you can look them up -- shameless plug for them. But you can look up on the website. They have a whole kind of consortium in Texas in bringing educators together from the K12 sector to higher ed. And then also, they have a mentoring program for Latino male students.

But they started this faculty affiliates program really to kind of bring together folks from across the country who are doing research on Latino males, and just kind of find ways for us to work collaboratively. So aside from myself and Sarah and Chris being friends, I think we all sh are the same interests around community colleges. So not everyone in Project Males does research on Latino men in community colleges. I think a lot of folks do research on Latino boys in K12 or middle school or high school, and then at the four-year universities. So I think ourselves and some of our other colleagues, I feel like we really are addressing the focus on community college students and what that looks like from their perspective. Next slide. All right. So why study community college Latino male students? Just as I mentioned, in general, when you look at college enrollment of Latino students in general, we find that our Latino students are more likely to enroll at two-year public institutions than at four-year institutions. And then when we [inaudible] that data by gender, we find that our Latino men are even more likely to be enrolled in community colleges than our Latina female counterparts. Up until recently -- I'm going to do another shameless plug -- I think there still is [inaudible] literature on the experiences of Latino men at community colleges. Last fall we released a special issue in the Journal of Applied Research in the Community Colleges.

And so we kind of pulled our faculty/affiliate network, [inaudible] people that we know are doing research on Latino men in community colleges and we released a special issue. But there's about six manuscripts that were published. And it think there's still so much more work to, and I think just even unpacking what Latino means. You know, there's so many different ways and so many different identity/sub-identities that go with that. Even looking at not just from like a, you know -- I can't think of the word -- just not looking at gender in terms of male/female, but looking at other identities that our students are coming in with. I think there's still many opportunities for us to do research on that. And then I think what we are finding is that there's still not many -- I haven't found any, but I think that's something that we're working on -- but there aren't any studies that specifically focus on Latino male transfer students. There's a lot of research on the experience of transfer students in general or the experiences of Latino/Latina transfer students, but not from the gender perspective of being a Latino male transfer student. I think that was another reason why we decided to focus on this particular population. And as we think about research around Latino men, I think specifically we think about -- a lot of folks have written on [inaudible] or kind of like these cultural and like socialization, like the social expectations of Latino men. And so I think there has not been very much research around this whole socialization and masculine identity within this context for Latino male students.

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And then lastly, you know, I think, as I mentioned earlier, there really is this need to consider college as complex individuals with this variety of identity intersections, and so recognizing that we can't assume that all Latino male students have the same experiences, have the same pathways. And so I think that's something that we're mindful of when we're doing this research as well, is to try not to generalize these experiences to everyone and knowing that there's multiple experiences of our students. So a little bit about this particular study. So as I mentioned, this was a tristate investigation of Latino male transfer students from Texas, California, and Florida. [Inaudible] why is California in the middle, [inaudible] not first? And I think we focused -- yeah. So I think we came into this research really with trying to understand like these different areas of focus, so not just their transitional experiences from community college to a four-year university. But what were some of these pre-socialization expectations of what it means to be a man, how did that play in a role in the way that these students experienced higher education and maybe their peers and their family members.

We were interested in looking at masculine identity and how do Latino men -- it's I think almost focused on how and if at that moment -- how do Latino men ascribe these characteristics of what it means to be a man to themselves, and where do they learn these expectations, and what does that have to say now about who they feel they are as college-educated Latino men. And I'll share a little bit their experiences as well. Next slide. So methodology just briefly. So our participants, they all self-identified as Latino, self-identified as male. They all transferred from a community college to a four-year university. I think one limitation to this, I think any time that we've been doing research is that we find that whenever we do research and we try to do calls for participants who are like if we say men of color or Latino men, or African-American men, we tend not to get a big flow of students who identify as LGBTQ spectrum. Right. And I think a lot of that has to do with the way that maybe we don't emphasize the X. Now there's this term, it's like Latin X that we've been seeing much more in higher education that's supposed to be representative of like non-binary gender identity of Latino/Latina, but it's really kind of the perspective now. And so I think that's kind of limited our perspective of Latino students -- -- [inaudible] who may identify as being gay or transgender or bisexual. And so I think we're mindful of how our findings are interpreted or not interpreted because of that missing perspective. So recruitment. I think that each of our campuses, our recruitment varied a little bit, but we all had this recruitment email that was sent out on behalf of the researchers, whether it was through a campus organization or through student support services, or even the registrar's office, they're able to kind of do these large email blasts for folks.

So location, you know, these were students who were enrolled at large public four-year institutions in California, Texas, and Florida. The interviews took place in each of our [inaudible] offices. And even if we did have a research team with us, the research team also utilized our offices. So before the interview, we collected demographic information through this pre-interview questionnaire form. So what we did is we conducted two one-hour interviews with each student. So the first interview, we intentionally really focused on just what were their academic experiences, so tell us about yourself, where did you grow up, how did you come about beginning your college education at a community college? And then that usually kind of led into so many different factors and reasons as to how and why they started at a community college. We asked them a little bit about what their experiences were like during community college and then their transfer experiences to transition to the four-year university. And then the second interview where we really focused on like dissecting and unpacking the masculinity conversation. And then we intentionally set it up that way because we find that, you know, talking about something very personal like your identity could be a little intimidating, so I think we used that first interview to really kind of build rapport with the participants, get to know them a little bit more and develop trust between us before really going into talking about these other topics. So [inaudible].

So next slide, just briefly, we're going to give you a snapshot of the participants. There were a lot of other things that we collected. So we had 34 participants, eleven were from Texas, ten were from California, and 13 from Florida. And you can see in terms of their representation of Latino identity, most of them are Mexicano or Mexican, Mexican-American, but I think it varies depending on the state. A lot of the students who were Puerto Rican, Colombian, Brazilian, Dominican, we found that they predominately came from our Florida participant pool. Texas and California, I think that's where we found the majority of our Mexican-American students. And then a lot of them were also of mixed heritage, so they might have been Mexican and Cuban or Mexican and Salvadorian or Colombian and something else. So I think that's also another opportunity for research. I think we don't do enough research on looking at Latino students and their mixed identities. And I know that we have some other colleagues who also make a point for Latino and Afro-Latino students and their experience [inaudible] also varied as well. So in terms of age, this was the age range. You can see 19 to 41, so that was a really large range of students. So the average was about 25 years old. Again, these are transfer students, so they're coming in already with a little bit more life experience. Many of them were juniors, there were some who were seniors.

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Most of them were full time. Most of them spoke English and Spanish, so we had about two participants that were trilingual and could speak German or Italian in addition to English and Spanish. Most worked part time at the four-year university. 21 of them were first-generation college students. And then their degree aspirations, which I thought was really exciting and empowering just to see that so many of these participants didn't see the baccalaureate degree as their end point. They all talked about what they were going to do afterwards and what they wanted to do once they graduated. And a lot of them wanted to go on for a graduate degree. So the research questions [Inaudible] the study, we had two. So one was what were some of these pre-gender socialization experiences that men being with them as they transition from the community college to the four-year university, and then how did masculinities and identity conflicts affect male students' attitudes and behaviors during this transition. So I didn't put this in earlier, but I did want to mention. So there was an article that was written by Frank Harris and [inaudible] Harper and it's called "Masculinity [inaudible] to the Community College". And they kind of do this composite, they do composite narratives of different male students who went from the high school to the community college. And they really focused on male gender role conflict and what that looked for these men who were constantly feeling like they were competing with maybe their peers or like the community, or like different expectations at home or having to work.

And so these [inaudible] factors that were pulling them away and how their expectations of what it meant to be a man, how that might have influenced the way that they saw themselves as students. And so I think this study, we were really trying to -- I don't want to say do a copycat version of it, but we were I think expanding it. So we wanted to know what do these similar experiences look like for those students who are now moving beyond just the community college -- does that change at all. And so I think that's where like the masculine identity and the gender socialization topic comes from. In terms of the framework that we used -- next slide -- [inaudible] socioecological outcomes model. And we used it because really there aren't very many, if not any, frameworks that focus on the experiences of men of color in the community college. But this framework assumes that men of color will begin college with this predisposed perception of college life and what it's like as it's determined by background characteristics or other societal factors such as, I don't know if you can see it there, but stereotypes or gender expectations, or primary language or citizenship status, generational status [inaudible] here in the United States, abilities, disabilities that these students might have. So these are what they're bringing into the campus even before they step foot in community colleges. And then once they're on our campuses, they experience kind of these four domains -- non-cognitive factors such as identity, so the way that men see themselves in relation to their peers. The academic domain, so how do students interact with the faculty, with the other peers on campus, how are they interacting with campus services. The environmental factors, so things like campus -- oh, wait, [inaudible].

Okay. Stressful life events. Recognizing that all of our students have lives and responsibilities outside of school and how does that play a role in the way that they engage or the way that the campus engages them in their experiences. And the last one is campus [inaudible] domain. And this is really looking at how is the campus creating an environment that's welcoming and supportive for students and for men of color. And so collectively, all of these things together will influence particular outcomes for students, and so whether it might persistence or achievement or [inaudible] transfer. So our focus was really on the transfer. So for Latino men, how do their maybe pre-socialized understanding of what it means to be a man combined with all of these contextual institutional factors, how does that influence their experiences towards transfer. All right. So findings. So interestingly, I think there wasn't -- as you can imagine -- there was no one pathway for these men. They all kind of talked about their own different ways in which they experienced the community college and then the transfer. Interestingly, we spent some time trying to understand -- I think there was some expectation that these men would have talked about oh, well, they're transfer students; if they were successful, they must have been able to just kind of go through the community college system. They already knew what they were doing.

And then it was interesting to find that it was a little different. There was a lot of -- what is that word -- like, challenges, just for the lack of what I want to say. And so what we found is that many times -- So first, they talked about their first that they entered the community colleges. And then I don't know if anybody has seen "Stranger Things", it's on Netflix. Anybody in the TV world out there listening? So "Stranger Things". And so when we were doing this research, we initially started this research last year. So it's a TV show and it talks about this upside down world where it's like you get lost and you're just trying to get out. And so it's kind of how we reframed their higher ed trajectory, that they first started the community college and then they ended up in this upside world and they're constantly battling with themselves internally or the expectations that they have on themselves that have been imposed on them by whether it's society or their perceptions of family or work. But they all came back. So I think we also spent some time with trying to understand like what happened in that upside world. So what was it that motivated these men to come back and then continue to persist? And then we talked about their transfer experiences and like I mentioned, their post-baccalaureate degree goals. So I'm going to share a few findings from each one of these different trajectories or points in the trajectory. So this first entry, I think what we found is that our participants, [inaudible] represents this non-linear pathway that several participants experienced when they first began the community college.

So for example, those students who are graduating from high school, they expression [inaudible] of wanting to make money and not recognizing that education was a priority. And so when we think about [inaudible] conflict and kind of these cultural nuances of the Latino families, just kind of feeling like I need to work, I need to support for my family. And so this student [inaudible] kind of talked about, you know, "I wasn't prepared for the workload or just being completely independent in terms of time management, holding yourself accountable. At the time, I was making what I thought was decent money for an 18-year old, and I thought hey, you know what, I'm making some money, I'm having some fun. I'd rather be working rather than wasting my time on something that wasn't benefiting me at the moment." And so I think this also has to do -- when he talks about not being prepared for the workload or independence, I kind of think about he really didn't have maybe the capital or the resources to initially help him navigate why education was important. I don't know. I kind of think about what was the institution doing or not doing to work with someone like Miguel if he's looking work, you know, what are some things that we can do on our campuses that like offering work study? Maybe he didn't know about work study. I think this was kind of the narrative that we saw a lot with our Latino male participants is that they talked about [inaudible] factors such work experiences or family obligations.

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On the next slide, something else that came up was this feeling of being lost. I think, again, bringing it back to a lack of capital and not knowing what they needed to do -- what classes to take -- not knowing what classes they needed to transfer. And so Edgar talks about, you know, "I felt lost. I dropped out of community college after my first two years." And that he felt disappointed because he went and talked to his counselor and she was basically saying, "You haven't taken any of the classes that you need." And so he felt that he was wasting his time, wasting his money. And then similar, Alex also talked about -- I think he said he dropped out after a year and a half. And it wasn't until he was put on academic probation that that he was really dismissed from the campus itself, and so he was pushed out. And I think that also influenced kind of self-esteem, students not wanting to continue their education, feeling -- I think we talked about pride as part of male gender role socialization and how this could be a blow to a person's ego if you know that you're working, you're doing something, but then you find out like man, I'm not taking the right classes or I'm not doing well academically. Forget it, I'm just going to go to work, I'm going to kind of give up. So I think this represents a narrative of many of the participants, not all of them, I want to say that not all of them experience this. There were some students who had no problems, they mentioned like, "No. I had the support of my family. I had the economic resources to be able to pay for college." If anything, some students found work on campus, so they were able to navigate those different resources and people on campus that could support them.

But I think that yeah, for many of the students, they did kind of go through this, like I said, non-linear pathway at the very beginning and trying to just adjust to the community college in general. All right. So upside world. So in talking about -- because of all of these different challenges, I think unfortunately [inaudible] a lot of these men to have to leave school. And then I think unfortunately, some of the things that they shared, we kind of called them these invisible barriers. They think these are some of these barriers and challenges that don't necessarily -- are often invisible to us as practitioners and as scholars because they can be seen as taboo for Latino men. We were going through some of these invisible barriers and we were asking them well, why didn't you say anything? And it was almost like, well, I don't know, we don't talk about these things, or it's just something internal. So some of the participants talked about feeling depressed. And this person who was suicidal and you know, he talked to us about -- he was like, "I actually went through depression like really hard. I was to a point where I kind of said my goodbyes to people. I almost became -- well, I did become suicidal." And he kind of talked to us about how he was struggling internally, but he didn't want to share it with anybody until finally I think expressed it and opened up to his dad, and his dad was the one to kind of give him some words of advice. And thankfully, Pablo was able to kind of reevaluate where he was personally and make the change for him to go back to school and kind of just do something different. So somebody else like Julio, you know, he talked about struggling with things like pornography addiction. And so this student talked about -- and I think he was hesitant.

We could tell that he wanted to share, and then eventually he did open up. But he said pornography addictions and lustful thoughts and stuff. "Something is happening with me. I don't feel comfortable even at the Catholic center, which normally I would feel way comfortable. It's shameful to me I have to deal with that. I was overwhelmed with guilt, feeling [inaudible] dirty, all of that stuff that comes with it, feeling dirty and guilty and not worthy of anything." And so I think this statement is just so powerful and it's very complex because I think he's talking about something that he's experiencing internally, but it's also complicated by expectations of religious expectations in addition to -- he went on to talking about how he came from a very religious family and so he felt like he couldn't talk to anybody. At the time, he also had a partner, and so he talked about that this was a challenge for him because he felt guilty being with her because he was finding himself addicted to pornography. And so I think at the time -- and we asked him, like, "Have you gone to talk to anybody," and he was like, "Usually I talk to my priest, but I just feel so ashamed and I don't know what to do." And so again, I think this is something that our Latino students or Latino men might not be as open to talking about just the topic in general, but also just these internal conflicts that are complicated by maybe social cultural expectations. And then Raul, again, you know, he was another participant who talked about being depressed and he said, "I didn't feel happy. I would wake up, I'd always be in a bad mood. I'd go to work, I wasn't really doing anything with my life. I would break down and cry.

I don't know, it was just tough." He would talked about he'd be at work and then just have to go to the back room and then just start crying by himself and then realize like, all right, I just got to suck it up and get back out there. And so I think these are really powerful narratives of students because it's, like I said, these aren't things that men and women I guess are socialized to share as being acceptable of asking for help. And so yeah, so we spent some time kind of understanding what this upside down world looked like and the different factors or experiences that these students had. But then we were able to transition them out and ask them, okay, so clearly you overcame these -- or some of them, they didn't because some of them said, "No, I'm still struggling with depression, but now I've been going to therapy or I'm talking to somebody, or now I'm taking some medication for whatever it is." And so they didn't necessarily say that they overcame it, but that they had found ways to manage it most times in healthy ways. And so then we started prompting so why did you come back, what prompted you to come back? And so on the next slide, this was kind of where we highlighted some of the quotes that kind of talked about why did they return, and a lot of it was this concept of just like not being happy and recognizing you know what, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. Some of these men were employed in some manual labor jobs, some of them were working at video game stores or just you know, kind of getting by and doing some work.

And so Edgar talked about -- oh, Game Stop. Yeah. So he was like, "You know, I was at Game Stop for seven years, I wasn't happy there. I was getting paid, they were working with my schedule, I was comfortable." But then he realized, "You know, I'm not ever going to move up anywhere. The most I can be a manager, but I don't want to be a manager." It wasn't something he was interested in. Julio also talked about he was working this 50-hour a week job that was repetitive and boring, also kind of had this realization like I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. And there was even one student who said that he literally went from his jobsite, like his construction jobsite and went straight to a community college and was there in his dirty clothes and his big boots, and it was just like, what do I have to do to come back and just sign me back up? And I think it's interesting when you see kind of that parallel between when they first entered and how important work and job and making money was to shifting to well, that's not what really made them happy. And they recognized that they needed to go back to school for something more. And Alex shared once he came back, that he had taken some classes again, was a little bit more focused, and then recognized that hey, you know what, I can do this. He said, "I got an A in two of my classes," and then he started meeting with the counselor and then kind of started recognizing for himself that this something that he could do. And I think a lot of the students also tried to find ways to get back on track.

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So some of them realized that they had some classes that they needed to retake, which was like a little blow to ego maybe, but they recognized you know what I need to do this. So one of the things that we also asked was what campus resources supported you, whether it was a person, a program, a service. Was there anything on campus or off campus that supported you? So on the next slide, here's an example. Some students talked about specific programs or resources. But more so, I think students talked about people. There were specific people in their life or in these programs that really made them feel like they mattered or like supported their sense of belonging. And so this student talked about, "It wasn't until I went to the community college and I met a mentor, her name was Myra. And she was the one, she didn't give up on me, she was in charge of the [inaudible] scholars. And so a student was also a former [inaudible]." And so he said, "She was a great mentor. She's someone who really made me stay focused. She's really motherly to everyone, she's really nurturing. I can cry in front of her and I wouldn't feel -- I'd be okay with it. Nobody likes to cry in front of people. She was really loving. Every time I would talk to her, I felt like she really cared. She really wanted to help me and this is something that was really important." So again, unpacking the statements, bringing in kind of the gender perspective of -- or that male gender role conflict of emotionality and restrictive emotionality and not feeling like you can be open and vulnerable, especially with emotions and feelings, but yet this particular person helped him overcome some of these maybe doubts that he had in coming back to school. So this is just one example, but there were several other programs at the community college that students referenced.

So in California, we have EOP, so extended opportunities program. I think there were similar programs in Texas and Florida where it's supporting [inaudible] low-income students transitioning to college and providing them with resources like bus passes or some monetary support financially. So something else that also came up which also prompted I think this additional -- well, anyway, so the next slide. Transfer. So we asked them once they transferred, what supported them in their transition. So this particular person talked about like a transfer bridge program. And so it's a program that the four-year university had in supporting incoming transfer students. So this was very different because the students talked about that there's general orientation and then there were like, very specific programs. But not all of these students experienced a transfer bridge. So for many of them, orientation, they were like, lumped up with all the new students that were coming in, orientation was very overwhelming, kind of felt like a waste of time, they really didn't get anything out of it. But for those students who did mention that they were offered some type of transitional support, whether it was an individual counselor or some type of program like this, it seems that these were the types of programs that really had an impact on those students in terms of making them feel that -- putting faces to names or making connections with individuals was really important, so not just saying like, oh, well, yes, let me show you where counseling and psychological services is, but let me connect you to so-and-so at [inaudible] and this is where you can find them or where you can contact them. I think that was really kind of what made a lot of these students feel supported, was knowing that they could find someone on campus as a resource to support them. So before the socialization aspect, I want to go back and just mention that one thing that we found was interesting is that many times when the students were talking about people who supported them, many of them didn't talk about people on campus, they usually referenced a significant other, a parent.

Many times, they were a female counselor or mentor or a friend or a girlfriend or mom. Mothers were probably like the number one persons of support that these students mentioned as being like that one person they could go to, which I think also plays a role into just trying to understand -- so that's another project that we've been working on, is what's the role of women in the experiences and academic success of Latino men. I think many times our colleagues have done a lot of research on the need to have male role models in their lives, especially men of color as role models to support them. But as we've been doing this research, we also have been finding how powerful the role of women has been in these men's lives, especially like I said, their moms. So one of the questions on that second interview questions about masculinity and masculine identity is we asked who is someone that you admire, who is someone that you look up to? And there was one participant who was like, "Well, does it have to be another man?" And it was just interesting, I was like, no, I guess not. And so it kind of reframed the way that even we were collecting the data. And I think a lot -- I won't say a lot -- but some of these men also talked about coming from a matriarchal family, so there were no men in their family homes. So whether they had moms or sisters or they grew up with their aunts or their grandmother, I think there is definitely so much more to explore in terms of the role of women and the cultural nuances as to how these men see themselves in relation to other men and also other women in their lives. So that was a side note.

Okay. So next thing, in terms of their transition experience, [inaudible] the one thing that we know from the literature is that transfer students typically have a little bit more difficult time transitioning socially to a four-year university because they have not felt -- one, they're coming in older -- typically older, different life experiences. There's already the stigma that you had to go to a community college first and that you weren't smart enough or ready enough to go to a four-year university. And so I think also these quotes in here really talked about kind of like finding other students that they could relate to in terms of their peers. Because these men maybe might have come in a little older, not all of them, like I said, there were some students who kind of just went straight through with no problem, but they did feel like they struggled with just making friends on campus. So Tony talked about -- I think we asked him do you have any friends, have you made any friends here? And he was like, "I have, but I really don't like them. They invited me over to their hot tub last Wednesday and I took over some beer and we were drinking a little bit, but we didn't get excessive. We were just hanging out. I was just sitting there and they were talking about really, really dumb stuff like smoking weed, they were talking about acid and shrooms. And I was like this is not my crowd, this is not for me." And so it think this kind of summarized what some of the other participants were saying, is just recognizing that they were at a different place in their lives whether personally, academically even, so as transfer students, there was a little bit more pressure to just try to figure -- like, you're not taking classes to explore what you're enjoying, but you're really kind of on this very narrow track like, okay, what classes do I need to take so I can graduate.

So there really wasn't a lot of time to socialize at the four-year university. And kind of like what Brian here is saying, like, "At the community college, I only had a couple friends and then when I transitioned -- but then now here I feel like it hasn't really been a factor because I go to class and then I go to work. And then after class, I take a break, just do my work." So it's also this other cultural I feel like with transfer students is that, "I don't got time for friends. I'm just here to stay focused, do my work," which I think is understandable, but I think at the same time, it complicates their ability to feel that sense of belonging onto a campus and to also develop their network on a campus. So they're not having opportunities to meet other transfer students or other folks in different disciplines or even faculty members. So that was something. I'm looking at time. So I guess the last slide is really just kind of a beyond, like touching on that post-baccalaureate goal. So it was really inspiring just to hear all of these men talk about what they wanted to do after they graduated. Some of them said, you know, "Maybe I'll go pursue a master's degree or something else, but for now, I want to work." But then they talked about what they wanted to do with that degree. I think this student was very inspiring and brought it back to the whole community college. He was a rare one. He talked about things like giving back and wanting to pay it forward, which I think was a narrative that we heard a lot through some of the other students as well.

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But this student, he started off in a community college and after going through some experiences at the four-year university, realized that, you know what, I want to be able to give back to other students like myself. I want to go back and be a community college counselor. And he also referenced his own community college counselor who supported him personally and academically. [Inaudible] like Chris, there were a lot of students who had this paying it forward reason as to why -- or rationale -- as to why they wanted to go on and pursue their master's or their doctorate or their GED or go to law school. [Inaudible] implications for future research. I think these are some things that I've mentioned throughout, but just looking at -- and again, I recognize that this is something that we're still working towards, this idea of like intersectionality and exploring these multiple identities of Latino male transfer students and understanding the role of social class and sexuality as well as race and gender on their experiences and their own identity development. Given some of the quotes around upside down world, I think we need to do more research around mental health and masculinity, trying to unpack that and why, like how can we support Latino men, or maybe even men of color or just men in general who might be experiencing these conflicts between self-care and yet, struggling with not wanting to ask for help or this kind of broader socialized meaning of what it means to be a man where you're proud and you hold it in and you be strong for other people and you can't let other people see you cry because it means you're weak.

And so I think that would be interesting as well as to unpack. And so this is something we've been kind of doing right now, so exploring this masculinity through this critical feminist perspective. So [inaudible], I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly. But there was this book called [inaudible]. And they're taking this perspective of like, so when Latino men become educated, does that shift their perceptions or their ideas of what it means to be a man? And I think that kind of came up in the second interview that we did where we asked them questions like, well, do you think -- you being in college, do you think that's changed people's perceptions of you as a man? And then has that changed your own perception of what it means to be a man? And then we asked them some questions about like, given what you know now, do you feel like you see things -- like how do you see women or what are your perspectives towards women now? And I think a lot of them -- most of them, if not all of them -- talked about like, "No, I don't see things gender neutral these days. I think a woman could do anything that a man does. And I don't think that we should limit women because of that -- this old way of thinking." And I think they challenged these traditional notions of [inaudible] and masculinity that I think we've read about in research on Latino culture. And then I think lastly, is this role of women on Latino males' success, and so this is something that we've been continuing to collect data on. And then lastly, [inaudible] implications for practice.

I think looking at it from a different point, like that first entry point, a lot of these sideswiped talked about like, "I didn't know what I was doing, I was just taking classes for the same of taking classes." I feel like a lot of these will take a larger institutional responsible role. I don't want to put it on the students to say like, well, maybe you need to go and talk to a counselor earlier on. I think some of these students were frustrated because many times their counseling centers at their community colleges would be impacted or they'd be like, "Oh, come back two weeks later for an appointment." Or they would have like these walk-up counters that would only see them for like ten, 15-minute appointments. And so you don't really take the time to build rapport with your counselor. And so I think there's this term that folks use, it's called -- I changed it to proactive because [inaudible]. Oh, intrusive. They call it intrusive advising for counselors. And I feel like, I don't know, I think it's just more like being proactive as institutional agents. We need to be more proactive and knowing that if somebody's unsaid situation or feelings that students are having, especially around the role of mental health, I think it's important to create space, not just space for [inaudible] men to share their narratives of success, but to have faculty be proactive in reaching out to their students and asking, you know, how are you? Building that rapport in spaces that aren't just in the counseling office.

So I think it's something that everyone on the campus should be trained to do in a respectful way and proactive way. I think [inaudible] mental health services both on campus and off campus is important. I think there's a stigma of going to therapy for Latino students in the Latino community, which I'm not quite sure how to address that. I feel like it's just so deeply culturally embedded in different families and I think every family, every person is coming from a different perspective. So I don't know, I'll invite my practitioner colleagues to maybe think about how can use these resources to be more proactive in supporting our students. And then in terms of transfer, I think having those intentional transfer orientations. So one student even said, "It's cool that we have this transfer orientation once we went to the four-year university. But it would be really cool if we had it kind of like before we transferred, like at the community college." Because he was like, "Sometimes when you go to these orientations, it's like information overload." And sometimes I think as people we, I know for myself, I retain information better when I hear it more than once. And I think that was kind of what the student was trying to allude to is that if we heard it -- we're not going to remember everything, but if we could hear it at multiple points in time within our transfer experience, maybe that might get us to better reach out to some of the programs or services.

So that was it. I had some case studies, but we'll leave it at that. I didn't think I was going to talk this long. I'll leave it to questions if you have any; if not, I'll share some resources. And maybe I'll send it to you [inaudible]. We put out a research brief on this particular study through Project Male. So aside from being [inaudible] affiliates, one of the things that they encourage us to do is [inaudible]. But they created a space where we were able to do research briefs. So this is one that just came out that's kind of focusing a little bit more on this particular study by looking at the findings around gender [inaudible] socialization and their conflict in transfer. I can email this to you if you want, as well we can upload it to the website for folks. There's so much to unpack here. I feel like we've got ten studies going on at once with all of the data collection. Yes.

[ Inaudible Audience Comment ]

Proactive advising?

[ Inaudible Audience Comment ]

Yeah. I agree.

[ Inaudible Audience Comment ]

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I think you partially answered it, is that we need to change the model. And so just to kind of summarize, [inaudible] folks that are listening that couldn't hear [inaudible]. So what he mentioned is that we talk about the importance of proactive and intrusive advising, but yet our campuses don't have the structure in place to create opportunities and spaces to maybe develop some of that personal rapport with students. I worked at a community college and I know that some of these appointments are like 20 minutes long. And you don't know, you kind of take the risk of like, are these students ever going to come back? This might be that one time that you will ever the student, and so part of you as an academic counselor is that you want to tell them everything they need to know about the academic advising plans and transfer so if they have it, but you're right, it doesn't leave much time for developing rapport and building relationships with students. And so I think part of it, you know, goes back to the institution as to how do we -- and then maybe it's not even how do we create -- maybe it's not the advising model per se.

Maybe it's capacity at the campus itself. Right. So I know that there's some campuses that serve 20,000 students, and yet you've got a counseling staff of maybe 20 or less. And that 20 includes part-time counselors because not a lot of counselors are working full time. And you've got the adjunct counselors who are working at multiple campuses and so they're not being properly, [inaudible], I feel like the campuses should be doing more to engage their institutional agents just as much. And so I think it's a combination of things, so maybe it's revisiting capacity, revisiting funding structures, revisiting even physical spaces of some counseling offices which could be really small and not very inviting. I think it's going to vary, but I think you answered your question by recognizing that it's an institutional responsibility or it should be looked at from an institutional perspective as opposed to saying like, oh -- counselors just need to spend more time with students. I think extending your counseling appointments to 45 minutes isn't going to fix the problem, it is going to give you that time. Because that just leaves you more time to talk about transfer requirements or something else. Or maybe even creating opportunities that you're inviting -- I don't know. Kind of like creating those spaces where folks can share their narratives of having some of the counselors. But then it has to be embedded. I feel like all of this has be embedded within the role of that counselor because they recognize that some of our states are unionized states and folks can't work beyond a certain amount of hours or be expected to go out and create these community sessions for students to kind of come together. So yes, it's a complex issue. I think if anything, what's important is that as educators and scholars, that we recognize the role of institutions and not put the responsibility or [inaudible] of responsibility on the student themselves and saying like, well, the students just need to be going to their counselor more often. Again, that's not going to fix the problem. Yes.

[ Inaudible Audience Comment ]

So the question was during these interviews, what type of [inaudible] response did we notice about some of these men when they were opening up or not opening up. I think that's why rapport is so important. There were some students that even if we were building rapport, were still hesitant about sharing. But I think over time, they eventually opened up or opened up shortly if we probed a little bit more. But many times, they had their head down, were fidgeting a little bit more. There were moments where some of these men would get emotional. Some were a little bit more open to being emotional than others. One student asked me why I didn't have a box of tissues in my issues, and I'm like, oh, I didn't think about that. So then he came and brought me a box of tissues the next day just in case. So I think it varies by student, by person and what their experiences are. And I think age also played a big factor in that because I think there were some of our students that were much younger that were still maybe developing what -- I don't know -- like how to express themselves emotionally, versus I think some of our older participants like 25 or maybe even like their 20s. I felt they were a little bit more comfortable with themselves and recognized their feelings and what prompted some of those feelings or emotions or people.

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Some of the men talked about -- would get emotional when they would talk about like their mom or a brother or a cousin that supported them. I think it's interesting. I think the role of the researcher plays a big in how comfortable students are feeling and are expressing themselves. You know, we've also done focus groups with not Latino men in particular, but men of color. And I think that's why I thought about this whole idea of creating a space for men to share their narratives because I feel like after most of those focus groups where you bring together at least like ten or 12 men and they're sharing and they're talking about -- even though these are research questions, it almost becomes like a space where they are just venting or acknowledging each other and they're just like, yeah, me too. And afterwards they'll ask like hey -- I think they don't recognize the role of the focus group is to collect data for research purposes, they see it more like, hey, when are we doing this again? Are you going to come back or when can we meet up again?

And so I think I've heard that multiple times in our data collection process and I think that's where that [inaudible] idea of like men, if facilitated by the right person, are open and willing to share with each other. And I think it's just creating that space where they feel validated and respected. I think even for myself being a woman coming into spaces where I'm interviewing men, I think some people have asked, "Well, do you feel like it's easier because you're a woman and because they feel like they can open up?" And it's like, not necessarily. Maybe it's just who I am, but I don't know if it has anything to do with me being a female. Because I know that I've got male colleagues that do this work who our students open to them just as much. I forgot where I was going -- my train of thought. But yeah, I think it's just creating the conditions and the space for students in general just to feel vulnerable -- that it's okay to feel vulnerable.

[ Inaudible Audience Comment ]

Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, we do our research and we go to these campuses and we give them advice as to what they need to do. I feel like the most -- sometimes for us, it's like the most apparent and easiest thing to do is -- it's interesting to see how difficult it is for other people to do it. And it's basically like asking faculty and staff to create a welcoming environment or how do you yourself project being a welcoming person? You smile, you say hello to people, you ask your students, "Hey, how are you doing?" Ask them [inaudible] about their personal life. I don't know if it's just academia or the academy itself, we don't get trained on how to express a lot of emotions or to embrace some of those effective ways of engaging with other people. And so I think that the community college is one perspective we get is that well, I was trained just to teach content. Right. There's some folks who are just like, "My contract says I'm just here to teach math. I'm just here to teach biology. I'm not here to play the role of a counselor. I'm not trained in that field." Right. But I think it goes beyond -- you don't have to be a trained counselor to be a nice person, you know, to say hello to someone, to ask someone how they're doing. So yeah, I think that's just part of my frustration when I hear colleagues say, "Well, that's outside my scope of my job description or that's just not who I am." It's like, well, you're in this field for a reason. And I think times are changing. You can't expect students just to come into a classroom and learn out of a textbook, you have to engage with them personally to be successful. That's me on my soapbox. Well, I'm conscious of time, which [inaudible], right? Okay. Unless anybody else has any other questions --

[ Inaudible Audience Comment ]

Okay. Sure. Yeah. So my contact information is on this information. Thank you all for joining us remotely. And the PowerPoint will be shared. My contact information is shared as well. I'll share the research brief that I passed around. Have a good weekend, everyone.

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